马尔：但“培训营”不是解决问题的答案。英国在北爱尔兰使用过类似方法，不允许人员自由离开，不成功。

　　刘大使：那不是什么“培训营”，我们称为“职业技能教育培训中心”。极端思想在贫困地区更易传播渗透，要使贫困地区的人民脱贫，就必须使他们摆脱极端思想的毒害。

Marr: Can I just put it to you that internment camps are not the answer? We tried them in Northern Ireland and it did not go well for Britain in Northern Ireland. These are camps with razor wire around them, people cannot leave them.

Ambassador: This is not a camp. It is a vocational education and training centre. You know that extremist ideas have easy penetration to the poorer areas. The idea is to help the people, to lift them out of poverty.

　　马尔：那为何中国政府否认它们的存在？

　　刘大使：我们从未否认它们的存在，我们甚至邀请外国外交官和包括BBC在内的外国媒体去参访，BBC记者与学员见面并采访了他们。我认为，人们应该从积极的角度看待这件事，设立职业教培中心的目的就是为了预防恐怖活动，从源头消除恐怖极端思想的侵害。自从这项措施实施以来，新疆已有三年未发生恐袭事件。

Marr: If these camps are only about that, if they are so innocent, why did the Chinese government deny for so long that they existed?

Ambassador: We didn't deny. We invited journalists and diplomats to visit. That is why BBC has access to interview people over there. I think you need to look at this from the positive perspective. It is for the purpose of early prevention of terrorism. And since the measure was introduced, there has been no terrorist incident for three years.

　　马尔：不管怎么说，这也是严格管理的地方，人员不能离开，是吗？

　　刘大使：他们当然能离开，他们能自由会见他们的家人亲属，这绝不是所谓“监狱”或者“集中营”。

Marr: Nonetheless, these are quite difficult areas, these camps. They are internment camps and people cannot leave them, can they?

Ambassador: They can go, of course. They can leave freely. They can visit their relatives. It is not a prison. It is not a camp.

　　马尔：BBC报道了一些在土耳其的新疆人，称他们的孩子被迫与他们分开，他们表示很担心。这些孩子现在哪里？

　　刘大使：我们先来谈谈这些人是什么人。这些人都是反对中国政府的，你会期待他们说中国政府的好话吗？教培中心学员的孩子们得到中国政府精心照顾。

Marr: The BBC talked to some of the parents of Uyghur children who are now in Turkey and they are really upset about the fact that they have been separated from their children and they don't know where they are. I can show you a little clip of it so we can hear what they say. So where are these children?

Ambassador: Let's first talk about these people. They are anti-government people. You cannot expect a good word about the Chinese government. The children, you know, the government takes good care of the children.

　　马尔：他们的孩子被迫与他们分离？

　　刘大使：不是这样的。如果他们想见自己的孩子，完全可以回国看望。

Marr: Are they separating forcibly parents from their children in Xinjiang?

Ambassador: No. If they want to visit their children, they can come back to China.

　　马尔：所以这些都是谎言吗？

　　刘大使：当然是谎言。根本没有所谓“强制父母和孩子分离”情况。

Marr: So these are all just lies?

Ambassador: Definitely. There is no forcible separation of children from their parents at all.

　　马尔：BBC记者去新疆采访了一次，称有400个家庭的孩子失踪。

　　刘大使：你把失踪孩子的家庭具体信息告诉我。关于人员失踪，有许多信息是错误的，我们需要甄别处理。比如，某国称新疆一位维族音乐家被杀害，但这位音乐家很快公开露面，活得好好的。如果你掌握所谓失踪孩子的信息，请你告诉我，我们会尽力帮助寻找，我们会告诉你，他们是谁，他们现在干什么。

　　马尔：大使先生，谢谢你接受我的专访。

Marr: The BBC has been to one town in the province where, in just one town, 400 families lost their children.

Ambassador: You just give me the names of the families who have lost their children. There is a lot of misinformation about people gone missing. We handled many cases like this. Some country said a musician got killed and the other day he emerged alive and happy. If you have people whose children are lost, you give me the names and we will try to locate them and let you know who they are and what they are doing.

Marr: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.