FT：欧盟领导人如今常谈论的更加自信是否已体现在对华关系上，您是否已经察觉到欧方的明显变化？

　　张明：在对华关系上，欧盟一直采取务实、自信的态度。我说欧洲应该更加自信和坚定，是指在处理其他国际事务上，特别是在维护多边主义、反对保护主义、反对霸凌主义方面。

FT: Have you seen clear changes in the way the EU is approaching its relations with China as a result of this attempt to be more confident, which is what the Europe's leaders are currently saying?

Zhang: Well, I think on China policy, the EU has always been confident and realistic. Yet I think on other international affairs, it will be helpful for the EU to be more assertive, such as when it comes to upholding multilateralism and opposing protectionism and bullyism.

　　FT：您是指，欧洲更加自信就应该更多反对美国，并同中国开展合作？

　　张明：中国向来反对大国间的零和游戏和冷战思维，反对将世界带入“冷战”灾难的非理性错误倾向。我们一贯主张大国间应保持积极合作，为世界和平与发展注入正能量。对于错误的东西，要勇于指出错误；对于正确的东西，即使存在外来压力，也要敢于坚持，我想这才是自信的表现。

FT: Does "more assertive" mean taking more stances against the U.S. and cooperating more with China?

Zhang: We are always against zero-sum games and cold war mentality. We are opposed to irrational and wrong tendencies that try to bring today's world into the trap of cold war. We believe cooperation among major powers is a positive thing for global peace and prosperity.

And for the wrong things, we need to be courageous enough to point out they are wrong. For the right things, despite huge external pressure, it is important to keep to the right things. This is what confidence is about.

　　FT：您的意思是，欧洲在向美国挑明这些问题的时候还不够勇敢？

　　张明：我愿意以5G网络安全问题为例谈一谈。5G技术是国际社会共同合作的成果，毫无疑问将为人类发展带来福祉。但一段时期以来，5G网络安全成为备受关注的热点问题。有几个动向值得警惕：

　　首先是网络安全政治化。有些人认为只要同自己国家社会制度或者价值体系不同，这个国家或者企业就应被怀疑、限制、打压或者抵制。对此，比尔·盖茨先生近期有很精辟的评论。他说，如果美国人对华为不放心，那中国人也有理由怀疑美国政府可以操控波音飞机的发动机。如果这一逻辑成为主流，无异于冷战重演。我想这不符合欧盟长期坚持的理念。

FT: What you seem to be suggesting is perhaps the EU had not been, in your view, brave enough to point these things out to the United States.

Zhang: That brings me to the topic of 5G. The 5G technology is actually a result of global innovation and cooperation. It could deliver benefits to all. It seems that the 5G has become a hot topic recently. I think several tendencies deserve vigilance.

The first tendency is to politicize cyber security. People holding such view believe that any country or its enterprise of a different social system or value system has to be suspected and restricted, brought down and boycotted. Mr. Bill Gates pointed out insightfully a few days ago that if Americans are skeptical about Huawei, then there is a reason for Chinese to suspect the American administration of manipulating an engine of a Boeing aircraft. If such logic is mainstreamed, then the cold war is coming back. I don't think such tendency is in line with the principle long held by the EU.

　　二是网络安全扩大化。一些政客或政府当局利用公众对新技术所带来的安全问题的合理关切，在毫无事实证据或违反技术常识情况下，反复编造谎言，散播恐慌情绪，目的就是拿“安全”说事，对想象中的对手进行打压和破坏。这一倾向也不符合欧盟理念。

　　三是网络安全单边化。从理性角度出发，维护网络安全应通过国际社会共同合作。但一些势力一味制定单边措施，甚至发出脱钩的声音。这种封闭倾向同样不符合欧盟理念，只会迟滞新技术发展，终将害人害己。

The second tendency is to abuse the concept of national security. Some politicians or even senior government officials are taking advantage of the public's legitimate concerns of technological security. They are repeatedly telling security lies when there is a lack of solid evidence or even the most basic knowledge of technology. They are trying to spread panic among the public. Their purpose is simple. They want to make an issue of security to bring down their imaginary adversary. Such tendency is not in line with the EU's principle either.

The third tendency is to unilateralize the concept of national security. Frankly speaking, to address cyber insecurity, only global cooperation is the way out. But now some forces are trying to resort to unilateral security measures or even touting the idea of decoupling. Such tendency towards isolation is not in line with the EU's principle either. It will only hold back technological innovation and is harmful to all.

　　FT： 欧盟此前制定的有关5G政策文件是否符合你刚才提到的理念？虽然该文件没有点名中国，但从10月份出台的文件来看，就是在引导欧洲国家避免使用华为设备。这也可能是下个月欧盟发布终版文件的有关基调。这似乎是您提到的消极动向的一部分，您是否对此感到担忧？

　　张明：在5G问题上，我没有要求欧盟接受或者排斥某一家企业。我认为，欧盟应秉持长期坚持的多边主义、自由贸易和市场原则，坚持公平、公开、公正、非歧视原则，而这些原则正是欧盟一向所珍视的。因此，欧方应坚持原则，不能模模糊糊、模棱两可，否则市场将严重扭曲。如果歧视性政策今天落在5G身上，明天就可能落到家具或者地毯身上，这样市场就乱了。实际上类似例子已经发生，美国指责欧洲生产的汽车威胁美国国家安全，这个逻辑就很荒唐。

FT: Do you think that the EU's document outlining the policy on 5G is consistent with the principles you described? Clearly from the application of the initial documents in October, it seems to be going in the direction to guide European countries away from using Chinese companies, even if China isn't named. And that's likely to be the outcome of the final document published next month. Does it worry you that it is part of the negative tendencies that you've been talking?

Zhang: I am not trying to say that the EU must accept or reject a certain company from a certain country. But it is important for the EU to keep to the very fundamental principles of multilateralism, free trade and market economy. It's important for them to stand by the principles of openness, fairness, justice and non-discrimination.

These are principles that the EU has long held dear to its hearts. So I hope that on these matters of principle, the EU would not be ambivalent but be unequivocal. Otherwise there will be serious market distortions. Today these distortive measures may be applied to 5G technology, and maybe in the future, they would be applied to furniture or even carpets. That will bring chaos to the world. Actually similar things are already happening. For example, Americans are saying that European cars are national security threats to them. It's ridiculous.