刘大使：我认为你没能看到事情的全貌。问题不在于香港警察。我认为香港警察是世界上纪律最严明、最专业、最文明的警队。如果和英国做一个比较，你认为如果类似的暴力事态发生在英国会持续多久？
主持人：但你看到警察近距离向抗议者开枪的画面了吗？
Ambassador: I think you missed the whole picture. The problem is not the Hong Kong police. I think Hong Kong police is the most disciplined, professional and civilized police troops in the world. If you compare what is going on in Hong Kong with what is going on in the United Kingdom, do you think the similar situation will go on and on in the UK?
Sackur: Have you seen the picture of a policeman opening fire on the protesters at point blank range?
刘大使：警察开枪是为了自卫，是为了维护法治。我在接受BBC“新闻之夜”节目采访时曾引述英国首席警监西蒙·彻斯特曼的话，他说“英国武装警察在面对直接生命威胁的时候可以开枪，以消除威胁，保护公众安全和警察自身安全。”英国媒体的问题是，你们只盯着警察的应对行动，而对暴徒的暴力行径视而不见。这些暴徒向一位持不同意见的香港市民泼洒易燃液体并对他纵火焚烧，你们仍然称暴徒为抗议者。
主持人：刘大使，我们也采访了抗议活动的头目，就他们使用的一些暴力策略提问，包括为什么使用汽油弹和其他武器，这些问题我们都提了。但现在的问题是，中国政府面临巨大的困境，暴力和动荡仍在继续，林郑的策略失败了。下一步，比较现实的策略是否让林郑下台？
Ambassador: The police opened fire in self-defense. They need to safeguard rule of law. Even here in the UK, I think in the Newsnight program, I quoted Simon Chesterman, Chief Constable of the British police. He said that armed police are trained to shoot to protect themselves and to protect lives of their colleagues and public order. You know the problem with the British media is that you only focus on the police reaction. You did not focus on the violent rioters. And you still call these rioters, when they tossed flammable liquid onto an onlooker who disagreed with the protesters, disapproved their vandalism, and set fire on him. You still say these are protesters.
Sackur: Ambassador, if I may say so, we've interviewed leaders of the protest movement, too and we've asked them about some of the violent tactics that they've employed including the use of petrol bombs and other missiles. So we have questioned them precisely on that basis. But the point for you is that your government is now in a very big hole. The violence continues. The instability continues. Carrie Lam's strategy has failed. Is the next realistic move you have to make to get rid of the Chief Executive, Carrie Lam?
刘大使：首先我要说，林郑特首工作做得很好。她的政府和管治团队仍然获得中央政府的全力支持。
主持人：但她过去半年来的执政状况很失败。
刘大使：我认为她没有失败。如果外部势力不在幕后操纵，激进的暴徒不破坏特区政府与民众的对话，她就不会失败。林郑特首和她的团队做了许多努力，他们以开放态度与民众接触、沟通。自修例风波发生5个多月以来，林郑特首和特区政府与民众进行了一百多场对话交流，但极端分子不给他们机会。
Ambassador: First, I would say Chief Executive Carrie Lam did a good job. Her team and her administration enjoy full support.
Sackur: That is fascinating. For six months she has failed.
Ambassador: No, I wouldn't say that she had failed. There are many reasons. [She wouldn't] if there were no foreign forces behind it, if there were no radical, violent rioters who blocked and sabotaged the conversation. You know, Carrie Lam and her team made many efforts to communicate, to reach out to the public. You know, since this happened in the past five months, Carrie Lam and her team have conducted more than 100 events to communicate with the local people, but the radicals do not give them the chance or opportunity.
主持人：你是位资深大使，你知道外交如何运作取舍。林郑现在可以做出选择。她可以让步，成立真正独立的调查委员会，对警方近几个月的行为进行调查；她也可以推动下届特首选举实现全民普选。否则，香港警察将没有能力重建秩序，特首将不得不依靠1.2万驻军实施更加严厉的镇压。你有没有认真考虑过这种前景？
刘大使：林郑特首及其团队为解决问题竭尽全力。一开始，她搁置了逃犯引渡条例，后来撤销了条例。她还提出四项行动，包括与民众进行100多次沟通。全民普选不可能一蹴而就，需要经过法律程序。中央政府致力于在香港实现普选。如果反对派在2015年没有投票否决普选方案，早在2017年就可以实现普选。
Sackur: You're a veteran ambassador. You know how diplomacy works. I mean, she's got a choice now. She can either make some concessions – that is, establish a truly independent inquiry into the police actions of recent months and make moves towards universal suffrage for the election of the next chief executive – she can either choose to do that or there's gonna have to be a much more serious crackdown, and that crackdown if I may say so is going to have to come not from the Hong Kong police who clearly are not capable of restoring order, but it's going to have to come from the Chinese military, 12,000 of whom are currently based in barracks in Hong Kong. Is that something that you could contemplate?
Ambassador: I think Carrie Lam and her team made every effort to address the problem. Firstly, she suspended the extradition bill and then she withdrew it. And she also, you know, made what she called four major actions, including more than 100 engagements with local people. But universal suffrage is not something that will come at just a blink of the eye. You know, you have to go through a legal process. The Central Government is committed to universal suffrage. If it were not for the opposition to veto the political reform plan in 2015, there would have already been universal suffrage by 2017.
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