主持人：你认为西方国家政府是任意欺凌中国吗？你担任大使时间很久了，不久前，你和英国政府还常常提到中英关系“黄金时代”。而现在，英国外交大臣告诉你，英国政府对英国驻香港总领馆雇员郑文杰被逮捕并遭酷刑感到震惊和震怒，对中国在香港和新疆的做法提出批评和谴责。美国联邦调查局负责人称，“中国的目标是取代美国成为世界头号超级大国，为此不惜违反法律。”中英关系“黄金时代”是否已因互相谴责和竞争而不复存在？
刘大使：现在该轮到我讲话了。
主持人：是的。
Sackur: Do you really think that governments in the West in particular are trying to kick you around? You are a long-serving Ambassador. Not so long ago, you and the British government were talking about the "Golden Era" in relations. Now, you've just come back from the foreign office with the Foreign Secretary describing himself as shocked and appalled by the arrest of a former employee in the UK consulate in Hong Kong who was tortured in China. The British government is furious about it. They're just criticizing and condemning your actions in Hong Kong, and in Xinjiang as well. The United States is now saying, and I'm quoting the head of the FBI, "China's goal, it seems, is to replace the US as the world's leading superpower, and they're prepared to break the law to get there. This "Golden Era" has collapsed into recrimination and rivalry.
Ambassador: So it's my turn to talk.
Sackur: It is.
刘大使：希望你不要再打断我的讲话。你们的《尖锐对话》栏目应该是话题尖锐，而不是你总一个人讲，不让别人讲。首先，关于拉布和我的会见，他的确提到郑文杰案，但并没有谈及新疆问题。是我向他指出，中国对英国干涉中国内政、干涉香港事务表示坚决反对。关于郑文杰案，郑违反了中国法律，他对违法事实供认不讳。
主持人：他在警方酷刑下当然会认罪。
刘大使：请你不要总打断我回答你的提问。你谈了很多问题，我需逐一回答。关于所谓中国警方对郑使用“酷刑”，我们完全拒绝这种无理指责。我们已经对英国外交部做出了回应，我们绝不接受英方指责，郑没有遭受所谓“酷刑”，他在被收押和被释放时均接受了体检，身体状况很好，完全没有任何问题。这只能说，你们对中国充满偏见。
Ambassador: I hope you will not interrupt me. I know your HARDtalk is about hard subjects. It is not about you talking all the time. First, about Raab's meeting with me. Yes, he did raise this case of Simon Cheng. He didn't mention Xinjiang. To tell you, it is me who expressed our strong opposition to UK interference into China's internal affair, that is, Hong Kong. With regard to Simon Cheng, you know, he violated the law in China for soliciting prostitution. And he confessed all his wrongdoings.
Sackur: I'm sure he did after the usual Chinese torture tactics.
Ambassador: Would you give me some time to explain before you can interrupt me? You know, you covered so many subjects. I need to come back to you one by one. His so-called charges against China's police are totally rejected. We already made our response to the Foreign Office. We cannot accept the so-called torture. There's no torture at all. When he was arrested and when he was released, he had physical examination. His condition is perfect. No problem at all.
Sackur: Ambassador, you have made your points. The bigger point I want to make is…
Ambassador: So that shows you had such a bias against China.
主持人：大使先生，你已讲清楚你的观点。我们剩下的时间不多了。还有一个大问题。美国一位高级官员称，“中国的目标是取代美国成为头号超级大国。”美国和英国现在都持这种观点。这是北京的终极战略目标吗？
刘大使：绝对不是。我们根本没有兴趣取代谁，也没有兴趣挑战谁。尽管中国是世界第二大经济体，但是我们依然是一个发展中国家，人均GDP不到一万美元，在世界上排名靠后。这是我第三次担任驻外大使，在我担任驻埃及大使后，我曾到中国西北部贫穷省份甘肃挂职。在偏僻的西北地区，人们连饮用水都很困难，靠挖水窖收集雨水、净化雨水，人畜都得依靠这种净化窖水。对于中国政府和中国领导人来说，解决这些问题都是很艰巨的任务。对内，我们要保障中国人民的温饱，使中国人民更幸福、更长寿。对外，中国奉行和平发展的外交政策。
Sackur: Forgive me. We are out of time, so I just want to go to this big point. The US and the UK appear convinced now that, as I just quoted a senior US official, "China's goal is to replace the US as the world's leading superpower. Is that ultimately the strategy in Beijing?
Ambassador: No, not at all. We're not interested in replacing anyone or challenging anyone. You know, we are still a developing country though we are the second largest economy. In per capita income, we are way behind. You know, we're just less than 10 thousand US dollars. This is my third ambassadorship. After my ambassadorship in Egypt, I was seconded to Gansu, one of the poorest provinces in the Wild West. People there did not even have access to drinkable water, you know. They had to build cellars to catch rainwater and then to purify it. Both human being and live stock have to depend on this purified rain water. So it's an enormous challenge for the Chinese government, for the Chinese leaders, how to feed the Chinese population, how to make the Chinese people even happier, living longer. China follows the foreign policy of peaceful development.
主持人：中国目前是否还执行邓小平著名的“韬光养晦、等待时机、绝不当头”战略？
刘大使：中国坚持奉行和平发展战略，因为我们从和平发展中受益。中国40年发展的奇迹是在和平的环境中取得的，只有继续努力创造和平环境，才能取得更大发展。这就是为什么习近平主席提出构建人类命运共同体的倡议。这是我们的目标，是我们坚定不移的目标。
主持人：刘晓明大使，非常感谢接受《尖锐对话》节目的专访。
刘大使：谢谢。
Sackur: But you know, Deng Xiaoping famously said China's strategy was to hide the strength, bide your time, never take the lead. That clearly is not the strategy of Xi Jinping.
Ambassador: Peaceful development is still our strategy, because we benefit from it. People talk about 40 years of miracle in China. We can achieve this because we are in a peaceful environment. We can only have more success by having, and continuing to build, a peaceful environment. So that's why President Xi Jinping calls for building a shared future for mankind. That is our goal, and continues to be our goal.
Sackur: Ambassador Liu Xiaoming, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
Ambassador: Thank you.
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